David Kay of Upside Foods on the Cultured Meat and Future Food Show Podcast
David Kay is the Director of Communications and first employee at UPSIDE Foods. David leads the company’s communications and public relations strategies, and helps develop and execute the company’s policy strategies. David played a key role in initiating the founding of AMPS Innovation, the trade coalition for the cultured meat, poultry and seafood industry in the US. David has spoken at or been interviewed in The Atlantic, Vice, The Chicago Tribune, Quartz and SXSW, and has given the keynote address at the Cultured Meat Symposium, Cell Agri, and the Food Innovation Summit. Prior to joining UPSIDE Foods, David studied political science at Stanford University and worked with a variety of non-profits to encourage more sustainable eating practices.
The Cultured Meat Symposium 2021 is taking place on October 22–23, 2021. Learn more and register for the event at www.cms21.io
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Alex (00:04):
Thanks for joining us on the cultured meat and future food podcast. We’re excited to have David K as the guest for today’s episode. David K is the director of communications and first employee at Upside Foods, which we’ll actually talk about on the episode of it. If you’ve been following us for some time, you’ll likely know that upside food has been formerly known as Memphis meats. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing David at different industry events and gatherings. He had a powerful keynote speech at CMS 19 in San Francisco, just before the pandemic David leads the company’s communications and public relations strategies. He also helps develop and execute the company’s policy strategies. David played a key role in the initiation and founding of amps innovation, also known as the Alliance for meat, poultry, and seafood innovation, a trade coalition for the cultured meat, poultry and seafood industries within the U S David has spoken at or been interviewed in the Atlantic vise, the Chicago Tribune forts south by Southwest, and has given keynote addresses at our very own cultured meat symposium as mentioned, sell agri and food innovation summit prior to joining upside foods. David studied political science at Stanford university and worked with a variety of nonprofits to encourage more sustainable eating practices. If you’re new to cultured meat, or if you’re a regular listener, you will know how excited we are to have David on the show. As upside foods is a key player in the space and the first cultured meat company to be established. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast and share with anyone that might be interested in the show. Let’s get started. Thanks for joining
Alex (01:50):
Us on the cultured meat and future food show. I’m excited to have David K as the guests for today’s episode. David. It’s great to have you on this.
David (01:58):
Thank you Alex. I’m a big fan of the podcast, so it’s really great to be here.
Alex (02:02):
Awesome. And that’s always so great to hear. So the first question is really about your background. So please tell us about your background and when you first got involved with upside.
David (02:13):
Sure. Yeah. Rewind the clock about five and a half years. I was in college and involved in some nonprofit work that was really centered around encouraging people to adopt more sustainable food choices. And eventually I kind of came to the conclusion that as important as that work is a more effective way to have a positive impact on the food system and the world really needs to innovate new methods of producing people’s favorite foods methods that have benefits for the environment for animal welfare and at getting billions of people to change their eating behaviors, just wasn’t a viable option. And so I heard about upside foods, which was then called Memphis meats in the very early days. It was still at a incubator. This is late 2015. I want to take a step back and remind your listeners how different the world was five and a half years ago.
David (03:08):
So there were no other cultured meat companies in the world, aside from upside foods, even on the plant-based side, impossible foods had not yet launched a product. And I just remember it felt so exciting and historic to learn about upside foods, but it also felt like a tremendous risk to consider joining. And I remember, you know, at the time I was considering some more traditional career paths to pursue after college. And I got an intro to Ooma and asked him for a call and was really expecting at best that he would be able to give me some advice on what type of career path I should pursue to make me competitive for a job at upside in the coming years. And I was surprised to find that he was actually looking for somebody who could hop on, do a bunch of different things with a particular focus on communications. And I think looking back on it now, it was a precedent of Ooma. I think he recognized the importance of bringing somebody on early and communicating to the public and to other stakeholders as well, very early on to make sure that the food system was primed and ready for this sort of innovation. So that was five and a half years ago. And I haven’t left since it has been an incredible rocket ship ride. And I’m so thrilled to be here and grateful that I get to do this work every day.
Alex (04:26):
That’s exciting. And so when you had that first call with Ooma, were you looking for a communications type of role or was it more that you were just interested in something that was this mission driven kind of direction?
David (04:41):
The industry that pulled me in than anything else? And I knew I didn’t have the necessary expertise to work on the science side on the product development side. And so I was willing to do anything that didn’t require that sort of technical background and communications is the role that Ooma was envisioning. Although in those early days I was doing a bunch of different stuff, which is typically the case in early stage startups, but communications has been the common thread and was always at least a plurality of the time I was spending at the company. What did you
Alex (05:12):
Study before you went into that role? What was your focus area for studies?
David (05:16):
I was studying political science. So there’s some relevance to there in terms of communication, writing public speaking, data analysis. But the poly side department I was in was coming at it from a very academic perspective and the work I’m doing now on the policy side at upside foods is much more applied and on the ground. What makes sense from a political and policy perspective. So
Alex (05:42):
We’re seeing an explosion of growth for people wanting to learn about cultured meat, cell based meat. And I think it’s really interesting that what you were mentioning about back in 2015, how important communications would be for a new and novel technology. I think for those who might be new to the show might not have heard of upside foods or a Memphis mates. You four, can you tell us what some of the core products are of upside food and really what the team is working
David (06:10):
On now? Absolutely. So our production method is what we call species agnostic. Meaning as long as we have the requisite cells, we can produce any type of meat. You can imagine that said the first product that we will be bringing to market will be chicken, which is something we actually just announced a few weeks ago. And so the biggest thing that we’re focused on right now as a company is completing construction on our pilot production facility, which we expect will be operational by the end of this year. And to our knowledge, this is going to be the largest cultured meat production facility in the history of the world. And the first cultured meat production facility built from scratch. I was just there last week. It is such an incredible sight to see, even when it’s under construction, we’ve been talking about this vision of me production for over five years and to see it in the flesh in a tangible way is just so powerful and so invigorating and really exciting that’s
Alex (07:10):
In California, right? Yes. And so a lot of people imagine that a facility that produces cell cultured meat and mass is often referred to as this looks like a brewery. And without going into the details of what equipment is, where would you say that it does resemble a brewery in any way
David (07:27):
It does? Yeah, I think that is the closest analogy and like breweries. One of the exciting things we can do is host tours of the space. So people can really get a peak into meat production. I think it offers a really unprecedented degree of transparency into the meat production process. And that’s one of the things that we’re most excited about.
Alex (07:50):
I literally have this in the notes that I will laugh a little bit when asking this because it should really be the other way around. But the question is really how does upside foods differentiate from other cell-based meat companies? And we know it’s the first and that’s why I kind of say like, it’s the other way around, but what really is your answer to that? So how is upside foods different than other cell-based meat
David (08:13):
Companies aside from upside foods, being the first company in the space? I think it also represents the largest and most advanced cell cultured meat commercialization effort in the history of the world. And I think what sets it apart in that respect more than anything else is our team. We have now over a hundred people working at upside foods, which is to my knowledge, the largest team on the planet for cell cultured meat production, and we’re hiring many more still. So if listeners are interested in working in this space, definitely check out our website. And I think it’s not just the number of people that we have. It’s the incredible talent and the incredible perspectives that they bring to the, we have senior executives from major food companies, biopharma companies, former federal regulators, business people, creatives, and so many more. And one of my favorite parts about work is I get to learn from their unique perspectives every day and not all of them are here for the same reason.
David (09:14):
For some people, it’s the environment for some people, it’s the animals for some people, they just think the science or the food components of what we’re doing is really interesting work. So there’s a lot of upsides, pardon the pun, but that’s one of the coolest things about working at upside foods. And we were recently named for the second year in a row as one of the best and brightest companies to work for in the nation, by the national association for business resources. So I think it’s our team that every day really sets us apart. I think on a product perspective, one of the things that differentiates us is we’re developing capabilities, not just to produce ground or minced meat products, we’re doing those as well, but also to produce actual cuts of meat. And one of the things you’ll notice if you look through some of the photos that we’ve released about our products, we just released a really beautiful photo of a chicken salad made with our product. And you’ll see the texture that producing an actual cut of meat provides. And so that’s one of the areas where on the product side, I think we differentiate one a hundred
Alex (10:18):
People is quite a large number. And if I’m correct, you are officially the first employee, is that right?
David (10:24):
That’s true. The caveat there is, we started the same day that my colleague Morgan started. And so we have an arrangement that I get to be employee number one, if he gets to be employee number a,
Alex (10:37):
I love it. And before you and Morgan, it was just the co-founders Ooma and Nick, is that right? Correct. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So how has it really been to see the company grow from four to a hundred?
David (10:54):
It’s been great. Upside foods has definitely gone through very distinct phases, much of which were determined by the company size in the early days, you have to be incredibly scrappy. I remember one month in this must have been 2017. I was managing a crowdfunding campaign. I was doing research on potential investors. I was scoping out locations for us to do our poultry debut, which we wound up filming and kitchen that Julia Childs used to teach in. And I was just doing all this stuff at once. And everybody at the company was doing everything at once. It was a ton of fun and it was a ton of work as well. And definitely those early stage startups, you need more people. There’s a reason we’ve hired into the triple digits. Now you need more people to have a sustainable environment and you need more people to expand the vision of what you can actually accomplish.
David (11:53):
But I think it’s just incredible to see how, in some ways the culture has shifted, but in some ways it stayed the same. And I think one of the things about upside foods is that very early on, we brought on our people team. I think the first HR hire was I think our ninth or 10th hire, which goes to show that our leadership has really prioritized building a very intentional and deliberate culture out and avoiding situations where all of a sudden we wind up with a culture that just happened to us. And it’s not one that we’re proud of. And so I think our team has done a really good job of building out that culture intentionally and making sure we could feel good going to work every day. And so I think there’s been a lot of different experiences and the experience of working at upside foods has changed as the number of employees has changed, but in some core ways it’s stayed the same. We’ve always had a strong mission drive. We’ve always been working cross-functionally with lots of different types of people coming from lots of different backgrounds and perspectives on any given topic. And that’s been a part of the fun of it.
Alex (13:00):
Is there a time where, or maybe even a story where you and the rest of the team know as like one of the most difficult times, what are some of the biggest challenges that your team has really had to face? And I asked this really because you are, have been there since the early
David (13:17):
Days, not so much a specific moment, but I think one of the biggest challenges has been shifting the world’s perspective on the viability of cell cultured meat. So transitioning that concept from science fiction to just science and I think it really required upside foods to accomplish a number of key industry milestones to get there. I’m thinking of the product debuts that we had. We’ve done beef, chicken, and duck product debuts. I think bringing on board really credentialed investors, whether those are food companies like Cargill, Tyson foods, we just recently announced whole foods has invested impact investors like Richard Branson, Kimbal Musk, John Mackey, and major financial institutions as well. I think growing our team and attracting real top talent, I think over the course of accomplishing these milestones, many of our greatest skeptics have become some of our greatest allies. Again, if we rewind the clock five and a half years ago, I think it’s a very different world than the one it is today.
David (14:22):
I’m in communication. So I read a lot of articles about our space. And when I think back to the headlines in 20 16, 17, a lot of them were all about if this happens, it’ll be big. And now I think the headlines are much more along the lines of when this happens. It’ll be big. So it’s really a question of when not if, and that’s a really exciting transition to witness. So I think we’ve really seen in a relatively short amount of time given the life cycle of in general, we’ve really seen that shift in perspective from going to a question of if, to a question of when,
Alex (14:58):
And it’s exciting to see those headlines change, essentially as approvals are starting to come in. One thing that I think we could have a totally different episode about, and I think we’ve got it before is just regulation and that kind of stuff. But we won’t go into that. Now, what I want to talk to you about now is the chicken product. Have you eaten it? And if so, what does it taste like? And what
David (15:21):
Do you compare? I have eaten it many times, so many times that I’ve actually lost count and it is delicious. And the only thing I can compare it to is chicken, because it is chicken. It’s not a chicken alternative, it’s not a meat substitute. It is the real deal. And we’ve done over a thousand tastings at upside foods. And most of those tastings are with hardcore carnivores and they try it and they immediately recognize it as chicken and they think it’s delicious. So we’ve gotten really good feedback on our early product development.
Alex (15:52):
So you may mentioned that upset foods has a platform where there are different kinds of meats involved aside from the traditional items that we’ve heard about such as beef, or I think duck, anything exotic that you could tell us you might’ve
David (16:08):
Tried it well, I can’t speak to products we’re working on outside of the three that we’ve demoed publicly. Again, I would just say that our production platform is really focused on producing any type of meat as long as you have the requisite cells. And I think moving forward, there will be additional products that we’ll be exploring. That’s
Alex (16:29):
Definitely exciting to know on that note, what is the overall go to market strategy for upside foods and how much of the focus will be on like a consumer product that people might be able to buy in retail stores versus food service or, or B2B?
David (16:45):
Yeah, so we expect our products will be on market by the end of this year, pending regulatory review. And ultimately the goal is to be sold wherever meat is sold today. So that will include food, service retailers and other channels. I think initially we will likely be sold in restaurants and likely we will be sold at a price premium, but ultimately the goal is to be cost competitive with conventionally produced meat that will take some time and some scale. But at the end of the day, we want to be a meat product for people at all ends of the income spectrum, whether you’re eating at a Michelin star restaurant or a fast food joint. Now I
Alex (17:25):
Had this question for later, but I want to jump to it. And that’s really that if McDonald’s came to your team right now and said, let’s replace the McChicken chicken with upside foods, chicken, and not thinking about scale or quantity or anything like that, would your team take the opportunity? Why or
David (17:43):
Why not? Yeah. Well, Alex, ultimately the goal is to be sold. Wherever meat is sold today. Initially it’ll be at a price premium, but ultimately we want to be accessible to people at all ends of the income spectrum. And we’ve actually gotten quite a bit of interest from big brands in the restaurant business, in the food service business. We’re always interested in speaking with folks in that industry, but to your question, ultimately, the goal is to be wherever meat is sold. So
Alex (18:13):
Liz Marshall was a previous guest on the show and she described your team as smart, positive, fun group of individuals. And so few startups have already been featured in a full length documentary and considering your role there, what was it really like to work with Liz Marshall’s team?
David (18:34):
It was great. And before I elaborate more on that, I would just agree with you, Alex. It is very rare for an early stage startup to let cameras in, to capture what’s happening. Just so your listeners understand we were founded in August of 2015. We had our immediate debut in February, 2016 and we started filming meet the future, I think in April of 2016. So we were just getting readjusted after that massive splash of our media debut. When we started filming, meet the future. And the reason we did it was we felt that short form media was great at capturing certain elements of our company, the what, the, how, the why, but it couldn’t really capture as effectively the who, the people behind the mission and the humanity behind upside foods. And so we felt that a longer form media format, like a documentary film would have been better to capture the who behind the company.
David (19:31):
And I should say, we could not have done it if we didn’t have a baseline level of trust and Liz and her crew, not that they would spin it in any way, but just that they wouldn’t go for any sort of cheap or sensationalistic portrayal of what happened. We wanted her to provide a portrait of the industry, and that was her vision as well. She refers to this film a lot as a historical document. And I think she absolutely captured that Liz is such a talented filmmaker who she and her whole team they’re so good at capturing the mundane features of everyday work in the office or the research facility, but making it interesting. And I think the film is incredibly entertaining and exciting to watch and I’d encourage everybody to seek it out. One thing I’ll say is I think it was definitely an adjustment on our end to get used to having a camera crew following our team around. But again, Liz and her team, this speaks to their expertise. They were really able to become that file on the wall and make us comfortable with operating, knowing that there were cameras following us around. It was a really great experience. And again, I’d encourage everybody listening to seek out the it’s available in a number of countries right now. And it’s at some film festivals in the U S Google meet the future and see if it’s available in your area. And
Alex (20:56):
Were you guys able to see snippets of the progress? Cause it actually took place like the recording took place over quite some time. So were you guys able to see snippets or was it something that you guys were just waiting to see the final version and then I’m sure the anticipation might’ve been crazy. How, how was that?
David (21:15):
We saw some snippets to make sure there wasn’t any sensitive information included, but we didn’t have editorial control or artistic control over the documentary that was completely in Liz’s control. So we did get to see some, but we didn’t see the final version until it was finalized basically. And it was pretty fun to watch and it still is really fun to see, you know, how your coworkers are changing. And in some cases, physically changing people, growing beards and shaving them over the course of time and to see your old facilities, we used to be based in San Leandro. Now we’re based in Berkeley, California. And so just to see that progression is a lot of fun and it’s a real throwback. I think
Alex (21:56):
I can say this because I’m a big fan of upside foods, but also the industry, but it’s kind of like imagining if there was a documentary at some of these big companies that you see today, imagine a documentary being filmed in the first couple of years of apple. There’s so many movies that have been built based off of it. It’s actually cool to see five years, 10 years from now, like people will be referencing this and be like, okay, that’s how upside foods started. And now this is where we get our meat. This is where we get our chicken. For example, have you ever thought about it that way? I
David (22:29):
Think that the bigger the cultured meat industry gets the more powerful of a historical document meat the future will become. And I think that it’s absolutely right. If you can think of any major brands today or larger movements to get a sneak peek into their founding would just be a real treat. And I think Liz’s film absolutely captured that peak and is just such a powerful and moving historical document. What is one
Alex (22:58):
Thing that you wish more people would know about upside foods?
David (23:02):
I wish everybody could meet the people behind the mission. I wish they could spend a day in our space and just hang out with our team. Because like I was saying earlier, there’s so many incredibly motivated, compassionate, and intelligent people. That’s number one, number two, I wish they could try the product. And again, our hope is that by the end of the year, we will have a product on market. And so that will start to happen. But I think there’s a magic moment when people taste and you see it in their eyes, you see that familiarity in their eyes, they recognize the product is chicken and they’re excited that they will be able to continue to eat the food they love just made in a new way. So I just can’t wait for as many people as possible to try the products.
Alex (23:44):
So a company perspective or even a personal perspective, what does success
David (23:51):
Look like for upside foods? Success looks like a world where consumers have a choice to eat the same products that they’ve always enjoyed, but made in a way that’s better for the environment for animals, for public health. And it means meat production can scale to feed an increasingly hungry planet. I think your listeners will be very familiar with the challenges our food system is facing with respect to skyrocketing demand for meat in the face of pretty dire constraints on our natural resources. And if cell cultured meat can enable our industry and if cultured meat can enable the food system to scale to meet that growing demand, I think that will have been, yes.
Alex (24:38):
We have a question from one of our listeners, Bianca from Australia asks about the rebrand from Memphis meats to upside foods. What was the inspiration behind
David (24:49):
That? Memphis meats as a brand has done an amazing job of breaking the ice and introducing our companies, foodie essence, if you will, at a time when people really saw cultured meat as science fiction. And I think our evolution to upside foods is our sign that we wanted to reflect the positive vision of our company for the planet and for the food system. There are so many upsides associated with cultured meat production, whether that’s upside for the environment, for animal welfare, for public health or for any number of other areas. And we wanted a name to reflect the reason why most of our staff, all of our staff gets out of bed each morning and goes to work whether virtually or in person. And I think the other thing about upside foods is it lends itself to more varied types of cuisine. It’s not pinning us down to a specific type of food or cuisine, but really the main reason was we wanted a brand that reflected our positive vision of the world. When
Alex (25:50):
You talk about cuisine, has it been announced that your team will be working on seafood? For example?
David (25:58):
Yeah, we are doing meat, poultry and seafood. All of those are key products to have in our portfolio, given the mission implications and the implications for the food system and for the planet that all of those carry. But yeah, we’re working on meat poultry and see, okay. So
Alex (26:13):
This next question, as we wrap up little bit of a more fun question, if you are just walking in the public and somebody just came up to you and asked you, what do you do for a living? What would your answer be?
David (26:26):
Ha I love it. I think my answer would be, I work at a company that is developing a way to produce real meat directly from cells. And I work with incredible co-workers who are so determined to build a world that protects the environment, preserves animal welfare and protects public health as well. And that is a great answer. You can learn more about
Alex (26:54):
David on LinkedIn and you could learn more about upside foods@wwwdotupsidefoods.com. David, do you have any last insights or announcements for our listeners today?
David (27:07):
No. I just say feel free to follow us on social media and thank you, Alex. It’s really been a pleasure being on this podcast,
Alex (27:15):
David, thank you so much for sharing your insights on the cultured meat and future food show. This is your host, Alex, and we look forward to seeing you on our next
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